Curse

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Suggestions are after the rant:

I don't understand how Arena.net just continues to stick their thumb in the eye of players who want the creative freedom to enjoy the PvP sandbox of creating and executing innovative builds. WHY is it so tightly connected to PvE to get the most out of it? There is no logical sense to it... it's as if someone wanted to enjoy all the features of Counter Strike: Source, they'd have to complete Half-Life 2 a minimum of three times (unlocking all character skills in PvE.

The reason why pure PvE players don't get these complaints is because they don't HAVE to put hundreds of hours into PvP just to enjoy their adventures. One side (PvE) gets to be free to play as they wish, while the other side (PvP) is just handcuffed to a contextually unrelated gameplay experience. How is that not discrimination? How about a system equal for ALL to enjoy the half of the game that THEY want to play?

Please, hear out the specific problems and suggested solutions. Always keep in mind though that the PvE side does NOT have to deal with the same frustration of being forced to deal with the other half of the game. I'll even begin by saying a respectable compromise is that a new Guild Wars player has to complete all the missions and ascend at least once before you allow access to most of the suggestions below. The goal should be to allow freedom on each half of the game near equally:

1. Please change that frustrating ball and chain called Attribute Refund points!

It is this issue alone that has me pulling my hair and drove me to post this thread. I've taken 160 enjoyable hours to do all of PvE. Only now is most of my time in PvP until the expansion. I have soooooo many ideas for my combo class, that I spend hours refining my techniques and testing in arenas. Thrills and chills, right?

Well, it's great until I run out of Attributes and am stuck with a test build so off the wall specifc, that I can't easily get back to a 'normal' build. Go play PvE? First off WHY the ball and chain? Does PvE have to play 20 PvP matches before than can capture an elite? Not to mention that my build is very arena/PvP specific, that I can't farm my way to 24 refund points. It used to take me 15 grinding minutes to solo farm Golems at 672 XP a mob for this purpose,... now you are even taking THAT away from us.

I could make a run in UW or FoW, but my build is worthless with my point distribution, it would take 30 minutes to an hour to get the XP needed with a full group, and I would screw my teammates by bailing on them once I got what I selfishly need. WHY the grind in an unrelated part of the game! And don't even suggest I wait for a 14 win streak in arenas to get it done.

SOLUTION: Simply refund ALL 24 Att. points once you re-enter a town! How can anyone disagree with this simple solution? What in the world can cause the game to fall apart if everyone can change their point around like they change their skills? The two change systems are related - so I understand that Arena.net let's me switch all eight skills from Mesmer to Necro If I want (in town), but when I'm out of points, I can't switch the related distribution numbers? That's insane.

2. When someone completes the game once legitimately, allow all access to all classes and skills

Obviously this is a major change that will likely be laughed off, but it falls in line with keeping the two sides separate from grinding. I beat the game once. If I replay any mission from scratch for PvP purposes, I am grinding pure and simple. Forced to repeat an experience already finished for no good reason at all. What other game forces you to replay a 50-100 hour quest three times? I wouldn't want to even watch a movie three times for an unrelated purpose if I didn't have to, so why weigh us down?

PvE players can be rewarded with special outfits and special effects I guess, so people can still play that mode for their Barbie dress up desires... I don't care. Toss in some crazy looking, exotic weapons (same PvP stats though) and you're in business. I've legitimately beat PvE mode, so let me move on and stop holding me back please.

3. The skill point system.

You say you are still working on it, so I'll respect that. If you don't do request #2 (full access to everything after completion), then at least make sure that anyone who goes thrrough the game once can EASILY have all skills for both classes at the end.

You know you've made many PvP players happy when they can finally enjoy PvP completely and separately from PvE post-ascension (until the mission pack comes out). I can say that the PvE mode is one of the most fun gaming experiences I've had in over a decade. Honestly! People only get upset over something they care about.

You guys did a wonderful job with PvE in what I thought was going to be a throw in for the deep PvP experience I was looking for (I play fighting games and online FPS competively). It's just a shame to see that the real meat of the game for long term enjoyment is hampered by your forced descisions to grind away in PvE. Please make the changes needed, and thanks again for an awesome product. As for now, I'm off to upset a UW group by getting my XP with them and leaving. My build sucks, so I'll be just there to leech off of their kills. There has to be a better way.

internopsp · Jun 20, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

1. If anything PVP is boring until they add more team and socialism and more rewards

2. pve is ALOT more demanding. You have a strong char from start. we gotta work our ass off to get a uber char

3. PVE is for people who acutally bought the game to PLAY IT not people who just want a mindless deathmatch over and over again.

being equal on both sides would be cool too but i dont understand why 90% of ppl hate pve.

Loviatar · Jun 20, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

. As for now, I'm off to upset a UW group by getting my XP with them and leaving. My build sucks, so I'll be just there to leech off of their kills. There has to be a better way.

and how many of those people are accepting you in good faith who may wind up being killed when your staying could have meant the difference.

you are wasting the time of a full group which is why posts like yours are given so little weight

Willow · Jun 20, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

I've never had a problem with not having enough Attribute Refund points. I'm not sure what it is that you've done to screw yourself up so badly. There must be *some* combination of skills that works with your current attributes that will let you get a good chunk of xp somewhere. I think you're worrying about this too much.

(Incidentally, I would favor getting rid of Attribute Refund points... but for a complete opposite reason than what you stated: I don't think they actually restrict gameplay at all- and therefore have no effect, and should be removed.)

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by internopsp

1. If anything PVP is boring until they add more team and socialism and more rewards

2. pve is ALOT more demanding. You have a strong char from start. we gotta work our ass off to get a uber char

3. PVE is for people who acutally bought the game to PLAY IT not people who just want a mindless deathmatch over and over again.

1) An opinion that has nothing to do with this post.

2) Out thinking live human beings or out thinking a mob that has the strategy of a three year old... don't compare the two. 'Demanding' can be a 10,000 HP monster that requires you only take him down with 2 HP melee attacks. Demanding? Yes. Fun? No. I like PvE, but I should NOT be forced to put in hundreds of PvP hours to fully play it... vice versa the logic for the point of this thread.

3. Read the post. I did actually PLAY the adventure mode. A slow 160 hours to complete nearly everything. Why make me do it three more times for pure PvP reasons? Again. How would YOU like to be forced to win (not play) 300 PvP matches before you can fully enjoy all of PvE? Ridiculous ain't it?

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and how many of those people are accepting you in good faith who may wind up being killed when your staying could have meant the difference.

you are wasting the time of a full group which is why posts like yours are given so little weight

Your first half is 100% correct. The second half is an illogical conclusion. I shouldn't even have to resort to this as a way of getting my Attribute refund points back, agreed? if you have a faster solution, I'm all ears. I want to play PvP, not PvE right now. Again, no one has to play 20 PvP matches to capture an elite in PvE, so the opposite shouldn't be forced either.

What this perspective has to do with the "weight" of my thread is beyond me however.

internopsp · Jun 20, 2005, 01:16 AM // 01:16

160 hours to complete pve? i beat it in less than a week and i was a n00b when i started...... no guild either (well i got a guild towards the end of the game but in the begining i was alone)

Oni No Arashi · Jun 20, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Someone else who wants it to be two games instead of one....

1. Refund points are for changing your build in PVE only. You can make all the PVP characters you want with what you've unlocked.... thus why is this an issue for you?

2. Complete it once and get ALL SKILLS and MAPS OPENED? So kill the replay value of the game with multiple classes. Just pick one class (War/Mo) and get everything within the first week for a hardcore gamer? Why? So you can have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

3. It's there. I've ascended 2 characters and by the time I was level 20, I had almost all of my skills for both characters. I was only missing elites which I've been grabbing about 2 a day for the last week or so. And I only play about 2 hours a day when I work and maybe 4 on days I don't work.

PVP isn't being discriminated against unless you're just feeling that because all you want is PVP... GW is ONE game... PVE and PVP aspects make it up. It's not two seperate games. You're playing a game, play it all. Not just a component that makes up less then 10% of it's scope and power.

PVP has a few arenas, PVE has this huge map to do. It's more then 90% of the content in the game... why do you think they want you to play it?

It's really getting tiring hearing this... "Change the game, give us PVP seperate!" It's not seperate, it's all one game.

Again, play it or don't. But why should they basically allow people to ignore the vast majority of the game?

And nice to see that you're one of those griefers whose around just to leech off the others real skill. I wonder just how good a player at PVP you really are, if you're not even trying to learn your character against the robotic AI of the enemy. Seeing as how I find some of the enemy to actually use better tactics then half the PVP'ers in the arenas... you might learn something there. Like how to adjust your build so it can be used when you're being stomped on by 10 others, when the poor guys pull three groups at once. Nothing gets you better adjusted to playing a healing monk or nuker Ele in PVP then having all those robotic enemies decide that squishy targets are better targets all at the same time.

And yet again... you don't have to do hundreds of hours of PVP. Not unless you feel the need to have EVERY skill unlocked and EVERY rune unlocked, and EVERY big of UBER weaponry out there.

Why?

This game is designed where they make only the slightest advantage. And any slight advantage can be overcome by a good strategy by the other team.

I do PVP about once a week, and win with good teams, PUG's in the battles, and I won't use anything over a minor rune. The penalties on others are just too much.

Why does everyone who's compaining seem to be thinking they have to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to be competitive?

thaumaturge · Jun 20, 2005, 01:18 AM // 01:18

1. 100% agree, entering a town should reset points, the only rare case I could see this being a problem is when a pvp team is doing very well on a slow night, all the other team has to do is restart and allocate points differently, then do it again and again. But what the hell is wrong with that?
2. Not sure honestly, pve serves as a bit of training for classes, having all skills unlocked would be a bit too easy I think
3. Are you saying you want more skill points? So you can but and aquire skills more easily? Sounds alright to me, maybe just make the capture signet cost 0 skill points.

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willow

I've never had a problem with not having enough Attribute Refund points. I'm not sure what it is that you've done to screw yourself up so badly. There must be *some* combination of skills that works with your current attributes that will let you get a good chunk of xp somewhere. I think you're worrying about this too much.

(Incidentally, I would favor getting rid of Attribute Refund points... but for a complete opposite reason than what you stated: I don't think they actually restrict gameplay at all- and therefore have no effect, and should be removed.)

We all have about 7-9 Attribute categories in our combo characters, correct? Well what if you've carefully spread your 200 Att. points across six of them (with a full 12 in one category) for a VERY particular build? I try out many, many, many ideas with my skills, so I adjust all the time. It is very easy to come up with a arena support toon with specific stats to be poorly effective in PvE action. I can do it of course, but the grind time is about an hour or so solo... and that's unacceptable for someone who simply wants to enjoy the sandbox experiments of PvE. Why do I need to grind to have fun?

squakMix · Jun 20, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I agree with most everything the first poster has suggested so far.

The refund points drive me crazy and don't make sense, the game should'nt have to be beat 3 ****ing times to unlock the necesary things for pvp, and some more colorful attribute system would liven the game up extremely. I mean, why have to do the same old drugerous pve THREE TIMES just to be able to fully experiment with the game!?

thumbs up from me on this one; I'd love to see all of these brought into place.

(btw: I have devoted more than 200 hours already to three different level 20 pve characters; These sound great even for me as a pretty devoted pve-er at the moment).

Deathlord · Jun 20, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

They should make it so that when you beat the game you get a free 10 or 20 skill points, that should help.

squakMix · Jun 20, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

yea, ANYTHING rewarding for beating the game would be nice.

Loviatar · Jun 20, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

What this perspective has to do with the "weight" of my thread is beyond me however.

people will see how selfish you are and with most (not all) people that will reflect negatively (to a degree) on what you said

to quote mr spock from the original star trek (series)
*i have found that it is not logical but it is true*

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni No Arashi

Someone else who wants it to be two games instead of one....

1. Refund points are for changing your build in PVE only. You can make all the PVP characters you want with what you've unlocked.... thus why is this an issue for you?

2. Complete it once and get ALL SKILLS and MAPS OPENED? So kill the replay value of the game with multiple classes. Just pick one class (War/Mo) and get everything within the first week for a hardcore gamer? Why? So you can have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

3. It's there. I've ascended 2 characters and by the time I was level 20, I had almost all of my skills for both characters. I was only missing elites which I've been grabbing about 2 a day for the last week or so. And I only play about 2 hours a day when I work and maybe 4 on days I don't work.

PVP isn't being discriminated against unless you're just feeling that because all you want is PVP... GW is ONE game... PVE and PVP aspects make it up. It's not two seperate games. You're playing a game, play it all. Not just a component that makes up less then 10% of it's scope and power.

PVP has a few arenas, PVE has this huge map to do. It's more then 90% of the content in the game... why do you think they want you to play it?

It's really getting tiring hearing this... "Change the game, give us PVP seperate!" It's not seperate, it's all one game.

Again, play it or don't. But why should they basically allow people to ignore the vast majority of the game?

And nice to see that you're one of those griefers whose around just to leech off the others real skill. I wonder just how good a player at PVP you really are, if you're not even trying to learn your character against the robotic AI of the enemy. Seeing as how I find some of the enemy to actually use better tactics then half the PVP'ers in the arenas... you might learn something there. Like how to adjust your build so it can be used when you're being stomped on by 10 others, when the poor guys pull three groups at once. Nothing gets you better adjusted to playing a healing monk or nuker Ele in PVP then having all those robotic enemies decide that squishy targets are better targets all at the same time.

And yet again... you don't have to do hundreds of hours of PVP. Not unless you feel the need to have EVERY skill unlocked and EVERY rune unlocked, and EVERY big of UBER weaponry out there.

Why?

This game is designed where they make only the slightest advantage. And any slight advantage can be overcome by a good strategy by the other team.

I do PVP about once a week, and win with good teams, PUG's in the battles, and I won't use anything over a minor rune. The penalties on others are just too much.

Why does everyone who's compaining seem to be thinking they have to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to be competitive?

No, not wanting two separate games, just the ability to NOW enjoy the second half of the game unchained from PvE like I was able to enjoy the FIRS half of the game unchained to PvP. You miserably failed at stating why that's fair to one side and not the other.

Your first suggestion doesn't work. I have all skills now for my two classes (that's part of the 160 hours I was describing... all the time skill capping after ascension and completing the bonuses for fun). So I should now use a second of my precious 4 character slots to create a MIRROR character just so I don't have to waste time with Att. points? C'mon, you even have to see how ludicrous that is (unless they allow unlimited character creation). And BTW, am I allowed to use my equipment in the custom builds? if not, then the idea causes even more problems than it solves.

2) Allow all skills (I didn't say maps) opened after ascension.... absolutely. If you want to go through PvE three times, by all means do it... why care what my PvP time is spent doing? Your quote:

"It's really getting tiring hearing this... "Change the game, give us PVP seperate!" It's not seperate, it's all one game. "

Stop ignoring my analogies... as a PvE player, you don't HAVE to put real time into PvP to get 100% enjoyment from that mode, but you absolutely have to put in at least a full PvE workloadx3 to get all out of PvP. THAT'S the discrimination. If it is one game as you say, why can PvE players ehave fun with only their content but PvP players can't with theirs (post game completion ONLY)?

internopsp · Jun 20, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

They should of made the game longer. That would be better than beating the game in less than a week.

I STARTED A MONK TONIGHT. And I'm already in the henge of denvi........

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaumaturge

1. 100% agree, entering a town should reset points, the only rare case I could see this being a problem is when a pvp team is doing very well on a slow night, all the other team has to do is restart and allocate points differently, then do it again and again. But what the hell is wrong with that?
2. Not sure honestly, pve serves as a bit of training for classes, having all skills unlocked would be a bit too easy I think
3. Are you saying you want more skill points? So you can but and aquire skills more easily? Sounds alright to me, maybe just make the capture signet cost 0 skill points.

For #3... I can live with that. Again, Arena.net said they are working on that area, so I didn't really rant there until I see the upcoming changes.

Spike · Jun 20, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

sigh yet another pvp player who wants to ruin the pve game. Go Play CS if all you want to do is PVP.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Jun 20, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

I didn't even read the whole thing...

First off, i'll just post this:: It's an rpg. a pvp rpg.

Personaly, i think it's fine the way it is... if you like the pvp, with the pre-mades, then obviously, you'll like it even more with a character that you work up. Besides the fact that it doesnt take long to make a character and get the needed skills you want.

My own tricks for making pvp characters = monk, played it for a little bit, and now i use the pre-made that has word of healing, that way i don't have to work much at all... and i make a wonderfull healing monk. I have played it long enough to get any needed skills, but for my mesmer illusionary warrior... i just used another one of my characters, and captured illiosionary weaponry, and i bought illusion of weakness(which i love and wanted for this warrior)... and then i had three useable pvp characters, a monk, an elementalist, a mesmer warrior, and wow... it was fun... i may not have the "superior" runes and what not... but heck, who needs them... it all depends on how well your team works together anyways... of course, if your perfect team faces another perfect team with better items(considering item unlockables and runes) you have a chance to lose... but it still mostly depends on how well you work together...

This "grind" word i see over and over in these guild wars threads need to be torn to shreads. If you took a year to make a character, that's a grind. If you took four hours to barely gain 5% of that next lvl, then it's a grind. If you're waiting for one monster to respawn, being bored out of your mind, then it's a grind. When it takes a full month just to try and get so-so pvp items, then it's a grind. Guild wars is none of the above, and if you played through the missions, which more then likely take only about 1-3 months at the most, for an average player. You'll then have a max dmg weapon, and max armor, and alot of skills that can be used for countless combo's in pvp creations (in which you don't have to make a new character, you can start at 20!!)

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

sigh yet another pvp player who wants to ruin the pve game. Go Play CS if all you want to do is PVP.

Sigh, another genius who can't comprehend what he reads. I've PLAYED PvE. I've BEATEN PvE... bonuses, missions, side quests, all of my skills and elites for BOTH classes. Been to UW, Fissure and back. I have 200K of Gs wasting away, almost all the equipment I want including a Superior Rune for all four of my main Attributes (I switch them in as necessary). Why must I grind anymore PvE to enjoy PvP? A 'grind' isn't PvE alone... a grind is forced PvE 3-4 times AFTER you already did it to get full access to the second half of the game!

And the $million$ dollar question that your type always ignore, how would YOU feel if the situation was reversed? What if for every new mission, you had to win 20 PvP matches? What if to fully access a new area, you had to play 500 PvP battles? We'd say this to you for complaining if we had your attitude:

"Sigh, yet another PvE player who wants to ruin the PvP game. Go play Elder Scrolls if all you want to do is PvE"

Please, if you're so fair, answer that question? I'll say it again, PvE players can happily ignore PvP and they think that's fair. A post-ascension PvE player who comopleted ALL missions (even bonuses... I don't care) should equally be able to ignore the requirement of being forced to do what he has ALREADY done to enjoy PvP to its fullest. My ideal Guild Wars that should satisfy almost both camps:

1. Buy Guild Wars

2. Create a character for PvE.

3. Go through all the missions, quests, bonuses for your combo class and reach ascension before finishing the game (100+ hours average)

4. First half of game is complete, no logical reason to repeat ANYTHING, so allow that dedicated PvE character access to all ONLY in PvP. That covers a lot of us for 1,000+ hours who want to only play PvP.

5. PvE is still there for dress up, item trades, socializing, UW & FoW quests until the expansion comes out. You can't use any character in PvE unless you've beaten the game, including expansion. All your full access abilities are for PvP only, and ONLY after going through 90% of PvE.

Each of these two "halfs" can be enjoyed together or completely separate. No more changes to PvE are needed (nerfing SoC for instance) to accommodate PvP. How is this not fair to everyone?